Automakers to gearheads: Stop repairing cars

"Bacon" (bacon117) 04/21/2015 at 10:01 • Filed to: None

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It only makes sense, I mean we’ve all seen how great copywrite laws are at preventing people from downloading movies or hacking software...

If it ever becomes illegal to work on your own car, will you stop doing it? Would you be willing to go through the effort of becoming a licensed mechanic?

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:06

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Fuck that noise. I'd be a pirate if that passed. Fortunately I'm not in the US...

450X_FTW > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:08

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This is why I loved my high school auto shop program. They had a basic intro auto class, taught kids how to jump start a car, plug a tire, change a tire, oil, all the basic understandings of a car. Then other classes up to doing bodywork, engine builds, transmission builds, etc. It’s actually what got me to become a mechanical engineer

ACESandEIGHTS > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:09

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.

Fuck manufacturers, dealers and yeah, F computerized automobilistic synergistic cross-bred add-value mobile transportation platforms.

Why do cars cost as much as houses? Houses are investments: they gain value over time. Cars? Almost without exception, 100% expense , and most will lose all of their value eventually.

Time to go Luddite. Smash them. Take up thy mantle, brethren, and let swing the mallet of thine rage.

Stop repairing cars. Start crushing them. I smell a rickshaw revival right here in the United State. Get you a Tuk Tuk, son.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:33

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Gird your loins, lads. Steel thine souls, as everyday we grow ever closer to the precipice of total and complete fascism. We live in a world that willfully hands over control to individuals with no interest in doing good for anyone but themselves. We cling to these false gods, in the hope that they will protect us. Long have we forgotten that it is we, the proletariat who are solely responsible for our own provision.

Get ready lads, because because first they came for our Skylines, and we said nothing because so few could afford them. Then they came for our Defenders, and many said nothing because few could bear the strain of keeping an old British off road tractor alive. When they come for your human-driven cars and your tools, it will be too late to speak up.

Apathy and indifference to the ever changing geo-economical and geo-political activities have caused this most egregious and disgustingly offensive thought process.

So I ask, what can we do now to stop them? More importantly, what are you willing to do to stop them?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:44

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This doesn’t have a chance of going forward. Nice try though, OEMs.

TheHondaBro > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:44

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Yeah, I’m not going to pay any more attention to this.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:45

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Two things.. the article is way blown out of proportion. They’re not telling you to not replace your brake pads or upgrade the exhaust - but rather don’t mess with the ecu. Considering modern vehicles rely on the onboard systems to control just about everything it makes sense they wouldn’t want you dicking around with it.

can anyone go online and learn how to code? Of course. Can everyone code well? Hell no. Will this stop Jimbo from going online, downloading some eBay seller fabricated software that can be dumped on his car’s ecu and deliver a promised **+50HP**!!!11!! ? Probably not. But shitty code mixed with complex computer systems which are controlling more and more of the vehicle can be a problem.

Now, does this mean automakers and the gov’t can get involved and tell you not to? That’s where things get dicey. Much the same way pro shops can make safe and promising gains, the backyard mechanics can attempt to do the same albeit with riskier results. That’s where inspections come into play with many states. “Jimbo you can’t remove your rear brake system to ‘cut weight’.” The problem here is not every state uses inspections and setting up inspection stations with the means and knowhow to diagnose and test ecu’s for modified code becomes a monumental task. Then you’re also faced with the idea of “ok the code has been modified yes, but it’s safe” much the same way brakes can be modified but they’re still safe. Ultimately I foresee it coming down to the manufacturers locking out their ecu’s with heavy encryption to keep tinkerers out then if an exploit is discovered the ecu goes into a lockout mode until it’s reset or the dealer unlocks it.

If the manufacturer does something like this everyone calls them a dick, however if the gov’t does it everyone calls to arms over rights infringement.

Nonster > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 10:47

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The article seems more focused on people tinkering with the electronic controls

Imagine an amateur makes a coding mistake that causes brakes to fail and a car crash ensues. Furthermore, automakers say these modifications could render cars non-compliant with environmental laws that regulate emissions.

OH THE HORROR!!!! Imagine an amateur making a mistake bleeding the brakes and a car crash ensues. If they render them non-compliant with emissions then they won’t pass the emissions tests in states that require them.

There’s no more safety risk now then there always has been. This is stupid

ptak appreciates old racecars > ACESandEIGHTS 04/21/2015 at 10:53

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I like this comment.

ShelbyRacer78-Fusion Modifier > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul 04/21/2015 at 11:00

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This

Nibbles > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 11:05

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When they outlaw wrenches, only outlaws will have wrenches.

Grindintosecond > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 11:10

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I bought my car. I did not rent or lease or borrow it, I bought it. It is mine. I get to fuck it up all I want and the end result is all on me. Was there a crash? They can determine if the system brain codes are different from standard and therefore it’s my fault and not the manufacturer. So I will pay the price, not a car company.

This is absolutely disturbing that there is momentum behind this on a government lobbying level. The fracking industry is suing any municipality that is trying to forbid the act of unregulated (EPA has no regulation over fracking emissions) fracking in any way, and the result? Ground water in Wyoming is turning up highly radioactive and there’s earthquakes in Oklahoma....they’ve never had them there before!! It’s about profit and business and the profiting side of things seems to win in the end.

So, they keep us from fixing anything thats wrong with the car? They will jack up the prices of repair once the other avenues are eliminated. Parts costs will go up as approval to make replacement parts is suddenly required. Warrantys are eliminated as soon as I dare change my own oil and with that comes sudden revocation of title and licence plate as tampered cars are no longer allowed to be driven cause theyre “unsafely” repaired.

I understand their technology and engineering needs protection, but tough titties. It’s just like anyone making computer code has protection. Good luck protecting that in China.

Grindintosecond > ACESandEIGHTS 04/21/2015 at 11:12

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I will actively seek carbureted vehicles for my travelling replacement needs. (As many Webers as required that is)

Grindintosecond > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul 04/21/2015 at 11:14

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They don’t want me to dick with the ECU? Fine, make it illegal. Just like the Catalytic converter removal is illegal too. But there’s rules creep. First that, then they relate other laws to it and now we can’t do a brake job. So, the ECU...I didn’t tamper with it. It’s fine, it’s just not connected to the engine. Motec Christ is.

kanadanmajava1 > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 11:25

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I kinda see why manufacturers would like to make messing with control units harder. But I’m pretty sure that they aren’t really targeting home mechanics. The dealerships that do the “proper maintenance” make decent profit (at least in here they do) but home mechanics aren’t the ones that are taking customers away from them.

But what manufacturers don’t like about is “chip tuned” engines. Many of the chip tuned units are quite hard to detect. As most of them aren’t legal they are trying to be hard to detect.

One local truck dealership that our company has been working with sells heavy duty trucks and buses. They mentioned that they have found some trucks that came when new truck was sold that had chip tuned ECU. And they are supposed to sell these with some kind of warranty.

So what’s the harm with these? Most new engines families have several engine models with different power ratings. In some cases the only difference between these is the engine mapping. So by copy-pasting new map will give you more powerful engine. But behind the engine there is usually a gearbox that isn’t similar with the box used in the more powerful engine. And that you cannot upgrade with a new software.

There are of course vehicles that have an identical driveline but different engine mapping. So they can be safely upgraded without shortening the lifetime of the gearbox. But how do you separate the good copy-pasted engine map from a one that forgets all exhaust emission standards and produces more power than the driveline can handle?

In many cases this is users problem (if we forget the environment at this point) but when the owner decides to trade his upgraded car, is he going to mention to the new owner that the car is pretty much illegal and the gearbox might be exploding very soon? Probably not. And if the gearbox explodes and the new owner goes whining to some discussion board that his xxx has a weak gearbox and the dealership doesn’t repair it for free as they are dicks and only babbling about some software issues.

So I do see why the manufacturers don’t like about the methods of messing with some things. But resorting to copyright violation methods doesn’t seem to be a nice method. Can you solve a problem by making something illegal that is already illegal? You will probbaly just make the modifications even harder to find.

Making it illegal to reset your oil change counter would be bothersome for home mechanics but that would probably just make a new service for real licensed mechanics as a “reset your oil changing counter for $5”. I guess some already do that.

That was quite long rant. While I understand the worries of manufacturers I still hate the current way of increasing any copyright crap.

dogisbadob > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 11:39

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Gearheads to automakers: Stop making shitty cars that need to be repaired in the first place!

Toyota doesn’t have any problems with this because their cars are awesome :)

RockThrillz89 > Bacon 04/21/2015 at 11:41

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I’m more concerned about my actual ownership of the vehicle than I am concerned about being able to wrench it (but they do go hand in hand really). If I’m paying $20k+ for something, I better own it (or at least own it jointly with a bank until it’s paid off). I don’t want a damn license to use the things, which is pretty much the way these things are headed in my mind. Sure, you may own the tangible parts of the car. But with the way computers are so integrated into the workings of a vehicle, the car is useless if you don’t have the computer working. So what do you own then other than scrap metal and plastic?

I just hate all this computer integration into cars anyway. I appreciate the improved safety it brings, but it also makes me wonder about the resale value in 5-10 years. How long are the manufacturers going to keep pushing updates to these cars? Because once they stop, the only people that will be interested in them will be the ones with computer knowledge, not your average Joe. Then when they stop pushing security updates to them, how easy will it be to hack a current car in the near future. I fear cars are starting to become smartphones, only with a couple more zeros tacked to the end of the price tag.

That's Engineering? > Grindintosecond 04/21/2015 at 11:43

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I don’t think it should be illegal, but, in the future, I could see legal precedent being set that doesn’t hold the OEM liable for problems stemming from ECU manipulation (not just engine ECU but still including it) or certain component manipulation. As hybrids continue to come to the fore, I wouldn’t want average Joe messing with high voltage lines - that’s asking for trouble. Additionally, many hybrid control strategies are dependent on OEM engine mapping. Furthermore, as V2x communication begins to come into play, it will be even more necessary for ecu communication. From a practical standpoint, there is no way average Joe will know how to do this. It will be likely that only OEM and approved third parties will be able to do this properly.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Grindintosecond 04/21/2015 at 11:46

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It’s understandable for rules to eventually spread. But how many automotive laws out there are too far stretched from their given purpose?

Catalytic converters mandatory - trying to save the environment a little.

The little “do not tint below this line” (i think it’s A-1) on the windshield - because some dipshit would put a tint eyebrow covering 80% of the view space

No aftermarket HIDs - because blinding people is fun

No straight pipes - because deafening people is fun

minimum brake pad width - because brake failure is fun

ECU tampering is necessary for performance situations so a full ban would suck but may lead to regulation. EG: so I need a cat but don’t want oem so I can get a high flow from magnaflow and still be within regs. Perhaps have licensing keys so that only approved vendors are able to get into the ecu to make changes as they aren’t the aforementioned Jimbob.

I saw this on Facebook and everyone got into an uprising because they made it seem like the manufacturers were going to prevent you from doing oil changes and body repair. Foolish.

Grindintosecond > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul 04/21/2015 at 11:55

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I agree with you, however I do believe there is desire to make it impossible to do your own repairs/service. I have a car that when looking for infomation on the type of oil is has to use, it said all oil changes should be done by a certified dealer repair shop...it had zero information on oil, filter, quantity, etc, hoping we dont go to the itnernet to find it out ourselves and go to dealer. That’s all they want. That’s the only way the dealers make money.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Grindintosecond 04/21/2015 at 12:13

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Such is true and will remain that way for years to come but with the rapidly growing industry of hybrids and all electrics / alternative fuels the regulations will make more sense with those. Much the same way new laws go into effect and previous generations are grandfathered - we’ll likely see that happening.

There’s a lot of fear over Nanny state governments but it’s becoming more so necessary. Take a carbeurated Ford pickup from ‘75. Take it all apart, go for it. What can hurt you? Don’t drink the fluids, don’t drop anything on your foot. Now take an i8 - just getting into the electrical systems up front require two people to operate the super secret dealer won’t tell you how switches and levers. Why? Because that electrical system can turn someone into goop pretty easy. Plus with 99% of that car controlled by computers one simple fault and things could go real bad real quick.

Look at the massive cockup that occured with the Toyota gas pedals and Chevy ignition problems. What would happen if someone screwed with their i8’s computer system which resulted in highway speed catastrophic failure. Or imagine the shitstorm once someone is turned to goop cause they got into the electricals and wanted to tinker. This day and age the tinkerer would have no fault but rather everyone jumps to blaim the big bad corporation and government for not regulating.

I’m all for tinkering - hell I retrofit my current automatic trans to an autostick trans thanks to some donor parts and wiring plus my headlights have projector HID retrofits as well. But there are things I won’t mess with and a high power electrical system is one of them.

Grindintosecond > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul 04/21/2015 at 12:17

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A downside, is how will the future youth be interested in the future of engineering? Kids taking cars apart and fixing up used cars go in to engineering. If It’s going to be illegal for my kids to re-wind the copper motors of cars in the garage, they won’t know how things work and won’t discover engineering futures.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Grindintosecond 04/21/2015 at 12:24

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True. But as with the industry those interests will evolve too. What percentage of the current generations know how to rebuild a carburetor? But adversely how many people that know how to rebuild a carburetor can also write computer code.

The millenials are obessed with computers. The next crop of engineers will split and cover the software aspect while the others adopt and take over the physical aspect. They’ll be the ones rewiring motors, coming up with new advanced sensors or maybe even new engines altogether.

xyzabc > Bacon 08/28/2016 at 08:03

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...and the logical progression:

Autonomous Car Companies to Car Owners:

“Stop Driving your Cars! Seriously. You’ve demonstrated you do not know what you’re doing You’re going to hit someone, something or take-up two parking spots at Starbucks. Look, just sit back, relax and loose yourself in a spirited, all-noon exchange of texting your BFF on how awesome it was your 3-year old cousin graduated from Pre-Pre-School with Honors over the weekend (...they say she’s quite gifted, and stuff...) as you swipe through the obligatory 211 Photos of the graduation party and (more importantly) you in your new outfit that everyone said makes you look so “in there, girlfriend”.”

Bacon > xyzabc 08/28/2016 at 10:38

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Unfortunately, that’s the way it has to be. 94% of all accidents in the US are due to human error. NINETY. FOUR. PERCENT. Yet, no one wants to admit they could be at fault. No one wants to take advanced driving courses. “It’s not MY fault.” Yet, clearly everyone wants to blame the automakers and say they should be saving lives. Well, fine, if 94% of accidents are due to human error, we need to take the human out of it.